Oneness vs Unitarianism Debate, Response to Tom Raddatz Part 3 ‘I speak not from myself’ ‘I can do n
TOM RADDATZ WROTE: This is Part 3 of my Treatise to Mark August and Steven Ritchie. There isn’t any way to sugar coat this: Onenessian scholars are dishonest scholars. They make up lies about what the Bible says and what Jesus meant. For example, here’s another lie that Bernard wrote:
“Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, ‘Where is thy Father?’ Jesus answered, ‘Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also’ (John 8:19)…In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins…” (David K. Bernard, The Oneness of God (Word Aflame Press: Hazelwood, MO, 1983), 67.)
Was Jesus “trying to tell them” he was the Father, as Bernard claims? Did Jesus actually say what Bernard claims, or does it require or need someone like Bernard to explain it that way to make it appear that’s what Jesus said? The answer is that Jesus certainly did not say “I am YHWH-God incarnate in the flesh,” or Bernard wouldn’t have had to say, “he tried to tell them that…”
ONENESS RESPONSE FROM RITCHIE: Jesus said in John 8:19, “if you had known me, you should have known my Father also.”
Then in John 8:24 Jesus said, “If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
Then in John 8:27 the inspired text says, “They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.”
Jesus declared that he had been speaking in “figurative language” about the Father in John 16:25 but that he would one day speak plainly about the Father. Figurative language is a roundabout way of speaking about the Father.
"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.” John 16:25
“They will plead with you, saying: ‘Surely God is in you, and there is no other, no god besides him.’ Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior.” Isaiah 45:14-15 (ESV)
Jesus often spoke in parables and in figurative speech in order to hide his true divine identity as the Father. The context of Isaiah 45 is clearly speaking about the Messiah. During the Millennial reign of Christ, all men will address the Messiah by saying, “Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior.” Jesus rarely spoke of Himself as being the same divine identity as the Father because his mission was to seek and save that which was lost by suffering and dying for our sins.
Philippians chapter two states that although Jesus was “in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.”
Equality has been translated from the Greek word “isos” which is often translated as “the same” as something else. Therefore, the man Christ Jesus did not regard being “the same as God” something to be grasped.
Acts 11:17 demonstrates that isos means “the same” as something else.
New International Version “So if God gave them the same (translated from isos) gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God's way?”
New Living Translation
And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God's way?"
English Standard Version “If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Berean Study Bible “So if God gave them the same gift as He gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder the work of God?” Berean Literal Bible “If then God has given to them the same gift as also to us having believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how was I able to forbid God?”
New American Standard Bible “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?”
King James Bible
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Christian Standard Bible “If, then, God gave them the same gift that he also gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?” Contemporary English Version
God gave those Gentiles the same gift that he gave us when we put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So how could I have gone against God?
International Standard Version “Now if God gave them the same gift that he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, who was I to try to stop God?” NET Bible “Therefore if God gave them the same gift as he also gave us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder God?” New Heart English Bible “If then God gave to them the same gift as us, when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?”
Everyone knows that the Gentiles had received the “the same (isos) gift” of the Holy Spirit that the Jews had received on the Day of Pentecost. Since isos is translated as “the same” gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 11:17, isos can be translated as “the same as” in Philippians 2:6.
Philippians 2:6 (BLB) says, “Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped…”
Since isos can be translated as “the same” as, scholars could have just as easily translated Phil. 2:6 by saying “the same as God.”
“Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be the same as God something to be grasped.”
How could the man Christ Jesus be the same as God if his identity was not the true God Himself who came down from heaven in an authentic human life? Just as the gift of the Holy Spirit received by the Gentiles was the same gift of the Holy Spirit received by the Jews, so the man Christ Jesus is the same God who came down from heaven in full human existence.
MR RADDATZ WROTE: 7“‘If you had known me, you would have known my Father *also*…9He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, *I SPEAK *NOT* FROM MYSELF*; but the Father who lives in me does His works.’” (John 14:7–10)
Why do Onenessians insist on ignoring Jesus’ words right there, where he explicitly and clearly stated:
“The words that I tell you, I SPEAK NOT FROM MYSELF ”
…and then, by ignoring these words, claim Jesus is *trying to say* he is the self of the Father??? Don’t Onenessian scholars even understand the simple word “not”? How about the word “myself”, is that basic word so unfathomable to them that they have to “explain” it away as if it is not there? If he meant what Bernard claims, why didn’t he just say so? Was he that inept, or are your scholars just that linguistically superior to Jesus? Or, perhaps Jesus was just telling the plain truth and Onenessians just don’t believe him because his words here don’t fit their preconceived paradigm?
ONENESS RESPONSE FROM RITCHIE: While Jesus is the same God as the Father in genuine and full human existence, he is not God the Father with us as God the Father. Thus when Jesus said to Philip, “Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me Philip, He that has seen me has seen the Father,” Jesus was speaking to them as a true human being with the divine awareness and utterance of God the Father working through him as a true human being. Therefore Jesus was not speaking by himself as a true human being, he was speaking by the divine utterances he received from his Father in “genuine and full human existence” (Segraves).
Oneness author Dr. Daniel Segraves wrote, “Everything that Jesus did and said, he did and said as who he was. God manifest in genuine and full human existence.” (http://evidentialfaith.blogspot.com/p/oneness-theology.html)
Notice that Dr Segraves said that “everything” that “Jesus did and said, he did and said” as “God manifest in genuine and full human existence.” Therefore, Jesus could not speak from himself as God, but only from God the Father who dwelt in him because he is God’s new human mode of His existence as a true human being.
The idea that Jesus is God with us as God the Father is an inaccurate and unscriptural assumption. For if Jesus Christ was God with us as God the Father then he would not have been able to be tempted by the devil and he would not have been able to pray and be led by the Spirit of his God.
MR RADDATZ WROTE: “Jesus said to her, ‘Don't hold me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’’” (John 20:17)
Why would you not want to hear what Jesus actually says about himself?
ONENESS RESPONSE FROM RITCHIE: Of course, if we are to believe that God became a true man in genuine and full human existence, then he would have to have a God to whom he prayed or he would not have been a true man at all. For if Jesus was merely God indwelling an external shell of flesh then he could not have had a true human nature to be tempted by the devil. Therefore, Mr Raddatz has constructed his own straw man view about Oneness theology and then easily attacks his own theological construct rather than attacking what knowledgeable Oneness believers actually affirm. I challenge Mr Raddatz to read my articles and books on Oneness theology and then dialogue or debate with me based upon my own written statements.
RADDATZ WROTE: “The words… I speak *not from myself*; but the Father who lives in me.” (John 14:10) “The word which you hear isn’t mine, but the Father’s who sent me.” (John 14:24) “Now…the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them...” (John 17:7-8) “For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God…” (John the Baptist; John 3:34-35) But you don’t believe him.
Jesus clearly denied that he and the Father were personally the same “who”: “…I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent me” (John 8:16). “It’s also written in your law that the testimony of two people is valid. I am one who testifies about myself, and the Father who sent me testifies about me.” (John 8:17–18) “He who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these I say...” John 8:26 “The Father hasn’t left me alone.” (John 8:29) “I haven’t come of myself, but [the Father] sent me” (John 8:42) “I am not alone, because the Father is with me” (John 16:32) But you don’t believe him.
In the passages, where Jesus said he was not alone (John 8:16, John 8:29 & 16:32), he used the Greek word “monos”. Jesus was almost literally saying, “I am not Oneness.” But you don’t believe him.
These important verses speak clearly against the Onenessian view. How so? For one, Onenessians argue against Trinitarians for ignoring the OT Scriptures that say God is alone , yet they are