The Glory Which I Had With You, John 17:5, Response to Dr Dalcour Part 6

 

At 36:55 Dr Dalcour references Thayer addressing the Son being “metaphorically” “in the mind of” the Father rather than literally being in the Father presence. Then Dr Dalcour said that it is Lexical abuse to cite Thayer because the quote I used does not occur at John 17:5. While the quote I used from Thayer’s Lexicon does not occur at John 17:5, the quote does reference John 17:5 in which para in the dative can refer to one being in the mind of an individual. While Dr Dalcour refers to this as Lexical abuse, it is still a factual statement that para in the dative can refer to Jesus being in the mind and plan of the Father because Joseph Thayer did reference John 17:5 when he made this statement.

 

In Dr Dalcour's online article on the pre-existence of Christ, John 17:5, Mr Dalcour admits that “para with the dative can carry a meaning of ‘in the mind’ (Num. 31:49 LXX).”

 

Dr Dalcour challenges us to cite a Lexicon from John 17:5 to show that Christ can be in the Fathers’ presence within His Mind and plan. What verse of scripture says that we must have Greek Lexicon’s to support any particular doctrine? We don’t need to cite Lexicons. All we need to do is to cite the words of inspired scripture.

 

“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 ‘And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed…’” Daniel 7:13-14

 

Daniel 7:13-14 shows Jesus ascending to the Father to be “given dominion, glory and a kingdom” which was not actually given to him at that time because Jesus did not yet ascend into heaven (after his resurrection) during the lifetime of the prophet Daniel. Since Jesus is not ruling over all the earth, we know that Daniel saw a prophetic vision of the future Messiah when he will actually be “given dominion, glory and a kingdom.” Here we can see that Jesus as a Son (as a man) was given dominion and glory in the Father's presence within Gods' prophetic mind and plan before the world was created while he was not actually given that dominion and glory before his virgin conception and birth.

 

Moreover, it is hard to imagine that an Almighty God the Son Person would be given dominion and glory by God as His Father before the incarnation occurred. For why would a true God Person who already has all authority and power have to be given anything from the Father that he did not already possess? Thus, if we are to follow the Trinitarian argument that Daniel 7 proves that a pre-incarnate God the Son was given dominion and glory by his Father, then we would have an Arian pre-incarnate Son rather than a Trinitarian pre-incarnate Son.

 

I do not need to cite a Lexicon to show that people and things can be in the Father's presence within His Mind. All I need to do is cite inspired scripture.

 

Revelation 7:9, “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.”

 

Are God's elect standing before the throne right now or is this a prophetic vision of God's elect standing before God's throne in the prophetic future? Here we can see that God sees the future within His mind and planning in a way that transcends the mind and thoughts of men.

 

Revelation 20:12, “And I saw the dead, great and small, STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE, and books were opened. ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED, WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

 

Here we find that all of God’s elect as well as the damned were seen “STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE” in the presence of God by the apostle John in prophetic visions. Since the All-Knowing God “foreknew” Christ and His elect “before the creation of the world” (1 Peter 1:20; Romans 8:29-30), there is no reason why Christ could not have already been in the presence of God in God’s expressed thought (logos) “before the world was (John 17:5)” created.

 

 

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